Official Firewire/SA-3250HD Discussion Thread

[HDTVFanAtic]

JVC 4000 - ALL CHANNELS report Digital Copyright Error 103, whether digital or analog. This apparently is an issue with this combination that has some posts on AVS Forum and is thought to be a problem with the SA Box and it's Firewire output not outputing the restricted copy flag properly.
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JVC 3000 - IT ACTUALLY WORKS - With limitations. I have experimented with it for about an hour now. HDNET, INHD, Discovery HD and the over the air stations appear to work.

As I got back home with the unit after I tracked one down (the unit is discontinued - I believe I got the last Sears unit in the area for $200 as it was store display - Circuit City still sells these for $549) it was 10:55pm and I quickly hooked it up trying to get the tail end of The Mummy on 628 with the 720p. I DID GET A COPY PROTECITON ERROR as I also received when trying again at the beginning of the 11 PM news on 28. I HAVE NOT HAD THE PROBLEM SINCE, so this might have been a glitch as everything synched up in the beginning - but it could re-occur.

Interesting, I hit the GUIDE while recording HDNET to see what would happen on the VCR. The guide appears on the TV but is not recorded - they got that right!

You probably don't care about this, but forget about anything other than the HD Channels with this combo. It appears the Analog Channels from the SA3250HD don't pass through this path. Whether this is a box problem or a JVC problem, I can't tell you. I DO THINK I tried to record 0008 and 0028 with the JVC 4000 unit and got the Copy Protected 103 Error, but this could be because of the bad info the SA unit was spitting out (see JVC 4000)

With the SD digital channels in the 100+ range, I don't know how to describe it. 50% wouldnt work. 90% of the other ones had one channel on 2/3 of the screen and the ghost of an old SD channel on the other 1/3.

The other 10% appeared to work properly. Though I doubt anyone really wants this machine for SD.

I have yet to find a way to make this combination play BACK through the SA3250HD over the USB cable - even with the bypass on.

I also just noticed their is a USB port on the front of the SA3250. I have no idea what it's for or what it will do. UPDATE: Supposedly for future keyboard and mouse use.

I will continue to play around with the unit and report back if I get the Copy Restriced error again on any network feeds.

UPDATE: I have gotten the copy protected error once again on all channels - but again it went away after fiddling with things. I thought it was happening when I plugged the firewire in live without powering the units, but that does not seem to be replicated in further test. In all instances, after plugging and unplugging wires, it always seems to go away.

I would tell you if this is an issue with HBOHD and SHOHD but BH in their infinite customer service wisdom doesn't have anyone who can activate services over the weekend. As I am going to Vegas on Monday, I will not be activating it then either. Too bad BH, you have to wonder how many people would sign up for service over the weekend if you had 1 person on duty? I bet satellite would upgrade my service and take more money 24/7/365.
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Mitsubishi 1100 - Tested the unit out on Sunday. It appears to work with the same cavets as the JVC 3000. Copy restriction on some channels and then disappears. This has to be a cable box issue. On the Analog channels (ie, 0008), No Copy appears on unit.

Mitsubishi 2000 - ?

Anyone that can report on the Mitsubishi 2000 with the BH Firewire SA3250HD, please do so we can quickly see what works and what doesnt.

[HDTVFanAtic]

The copy protection issue is quite frustrating. At 11pm this evening, every single channel all the sudden has a copy protection popup. I was actually recording the movie trailers on InHD between 10:30 and 10:52pm. When I tried to record again at 11pm, Output limited to 480i popped up on all the 600 and 700 HD channels (with the exception of 603 and 604 - which aren't HD).

No matter how many restart and retrys I have attempted - it looks like it's not going away.

Furthermore, this is being exhibited on 2 JVC 3000 units, so it clearly is not the DVHS.

Anyone that tells me that BHS is not playing around to make sure they put out Copy Restricted Programming on all channels, I will have a hard time believing you. There is just no rhyme or reason to all this starting and stopping like it does on multiple machines and brands.

[HDTVFanAtic]

I have now played around with this for 4 hours straight and no matter the starting sequence or the plug/unplug sequence, I hit copy protection reducing the resolution on all BHS HD Channels to 480i when recording with a DVHS.

This includes all local OTA Channels.

It worked fine until 11pm....then boom.

If this is the game they intend to play with their new boxes, I will go to satellite.

Their customer service is the worse.

[HDTVFanAtic]

And this morning without doing anything, all channels including the 605-628 range suddently work again without the copy restriction flag.

Is there any doubt this is BHS screwing around?

11AM UPDATE - And the box reboots by itself at 10:30am - Guess what will not work stating copy restriction flags now?

[bdraw]

I can't seem to get a signal out of the 1394 port of my 3250 at all.

It is detected by my TV, and seems to be talking to everything, yet it is greyed out on my HAVI screen. I think I may need the update that you got, what version of the firmware is your box on?

I think you are right about the copy protection which is probably part of the reason that they didn't want to give the boxes to us untill they were done testing, so I think it is important to be patient. BHN has had problems with copy protection in the past, between the DVI cable and the macro vision on the s-video output on the Pace box.

I don't think you will have better luck with the sat providers, in fact E* just removed the firewire port from their only box that even had it(921), And I would be surprised to see it added back on that model or any other. The mpaa seems to have the sat companies where they want them, and it doesn't look good for any consumer who doesn't want to pay 1k for a HD Tivo.

[HDTVFanAtic]

My 3250HD has rebooted so many times over the weekend by itself, I can't imagine what firmware its on. All I know was when I left Florida this morning headed to Vegas, the copy protection was lighting up like a Christmas tree.

Just a thought, but as the 3250 seems to be putting out all the wrong copy protection data, I wonder if that would prevent it from being shown in HAVI. My guess is yes. For example, in the times when Discovery HD works properly, it looks identical to the Channel 690 feed (duh).

When it does work and the copy protection - forced to 480i screen comes up, It looks like a typical 4:3 showing 16:9 with bands at the top and bottom.

My first bet would be somehow the TV just doesn't know what to do with the output and so its greyed out.

I am hoping that SA will have a presence on the exhibit floor - though not holding my breath as it's more a TV thing instead of cable thing. I drove by the convention center this evening and Apple has a big banner announcing something in HD for the rest of us (I could only wish).

If SA is one the floor, I intend to ask some real hard questions of their tech people as I am sure they have to have somewhat more of a clue than the clueless BH people.

[jimwhite]

Have you done a set-up on the box? you turn it off, then press Guide and Info together... follow the on-screen prompts....

Mine works great with my Hitachi RPTV and JVC 30k... now to pipe it into the computerand see if I can get that interface to work :lol:

Jim

[bdraw]

Well mine is on 1.56.4.1 which acording to the avs forum is the latest version. I will wait till the next release, or I may contact SA directly to see if I can give some feeback.

Thanks for the help.

[jimwhite]

Well, I followed the instructions in that monster thread over at AVSForums in the HDRecorder section called something like "Record Firewire now in Windows XP" and voilla !! I successfully recorded 30 minutes of HDNet to my hard drive.... the capture tool, CapDVHS, is terrible, but the potential is there.... :lol:

Jim

[bdraw]

Yeah, I have been using that to record OTA for a long time. It is a pain, now that I have a DVHS I am going to try dvhstool, to archive video from tape.

I would also like to try the Firebus/DTVRecorder from Vividlogic when it is released. I have to admit it dosen't look good based on the beta version, but I am trying to stay optomistic. The concept is great, now if they could just deliver.

[HDTVFanAtic]

Today I met Jim Kiker, the Director of Explorer Settops for Scientific Atlanta while at the NAB in Las Vegas. I explained the issues, he got in touch with his engineers in Atlanta, they replicated the problem and they think they know what the issue is and have corrected it in the lab - but I am sending him a link of dr1394’s transport stream dump from avs forum this evening for them to double check that. If all goes according to plan, they have a firmware update going to beta on Friday and this fix will be in it. If it passes beta, it should be sent to cable companies to do updates in 2 weeks.

He claims TW and BH actually are fast to put in the updates - so he thinks it will happen in rapid order.

This guy had to be one of the nicest guys I have met out here. He was very concerned about the issue and was simply stated, embarrassed, that the SA box had this issue. He obviously takes a lot of pride in his work and didn't like that this was not working right.

He has a JVC 30k at his home in Atlanta, but irony what it is, they use Motorola on the Comcast System he is on. He is getting a 6200 Motorola box on Thursday for his home. If Comcast had used the SA box in Atlanta, as he has a JVC 30k, we probably would have never had this problem.

That's a loss for us, as he cannot do anything about issue with the Motorola box as he works for SA, so it put us SA users with the loss of a valuable asset - although from what I've seen of this guy, he will do whatever it takes to get it right.

He says the JVC 40k should also work fine when all this is corrected. Ditto the Mitsu 1100 and 2000.

You might be interested in knowing he confirmed my observation that the Analog Channels would not output on the Firewire output as the unit has no mpeg encoder in it - So I wouldn't expect to be able to record any SD programming you might want with this setup. This is not an issue with the SA 8000HD he showed me, as it has 2 tuners and a mpeg encoder in it. However, he told me no cable companies are ordering the 8000HD with the optional Firewire adapter.

Also of note, he said most cable systems ONLY ORDERED 10 TO 20 OF THESE - just so they could be legal under FCC rules. It's not like they are giving them out to anyone who walks in. Thus, that's why you have to jump through hoops to get one.

And anyone who read my posts in the other thread of how I had to go all the way to the CEO in Syracuse to get the box from BH - he says he had to do the same thing - going to the head of Comcast to get the local system to give him a Motorola 6200 unit - which he gets on Thursday.

[bdraw]

Thanks for asking, did you by any chance address the incompatibility between the the Mistu Netcommand 3.0 and the sa 3250?
It is detected but no picture.

[HDTVFanAtic]

I didn't but i will today. My first guess is that the bad info the SA3250HD is spitting out it causing the Netcommand 3.0 not to display anything. He firmly believes that this is the key issue to most of these problem - for example, why the JVC 30k sometimes works and other times doesn't. He believes, and rightfully so, correct that issue and then see where we are.

[bdraw]

Today my friend Warrn modivated me to try to record directly from the 3250 to my PC. I regret to say that Warren got it working before me, but he had about a 1 hour head start.

We used some panisonic drivers and capdvhs to do it. The results were very promising, for anyone who doesn't want to buy a DVHS and already has a computer with a 1394 port.

If you want to get brave and try it.
http://bdraw.cjb.net/downloads/meidvhs.zip
http://bdraw.cjb.net/downloads/CapDVHS0301.zip

Getting the driver to load is the tuff part, because XP doesn't want to let you, I plan to write good instructions eventually.

[HDTVFanAtic]

I met with the President of Pinnacle Systems Wednesday Morning at 10AM. I showed him all the online info about this - and he clearly sees there is a demand for a REAL app that will act as a DVHS recorder on the PC - especially as he sees it integrating with the Pinnacle editing software.

He's already sent the MAC SDK 18 info to his people and told them to start looking at everything. I told him I'd be willing to look and play around with anything he comes up with.

Keep your fingers crossed.

[bdraw]

Vividlogic's DTV recorder software is supposed to be released in the next week, which does exactly that. Plus there is dvhstool, that will work with a DVHS deck. The real problem is that it doesn't look like there will ever be a 5c compatible firewire card for the pc, which means it won't work with most sources.

[HDTVFanAtic]

I'll have to look into what 5c does. I sure don't know off the top of my head.

And I finally got a recording off the SA 3250HD to DVHS and right in the middle of it BH reset my STB. :(

Anyone know how often they reset the boxes anyway? What a pain.

[bdraw]

5C is basically a type of DRM encryption that is used to protect content over various connections including 1394, It is also called DTCP.

There are many levels of copying allowed. Here is a small quote.

"Compliant devices determine which access and copying activities are legal by examining two bits of Copy Control Information (CCI) transmitted with each packet of protected content. These bits can define four possible copy-protection states: "copy one generation" (CCI=10), "copy freely" (CCI=00), "copy never" (CCI=11, for original content that cannot be copied), and "no more copies" (CCI=01, which specifies that the content is a first-generation recording that can't be copied again)."

The problem is that even any copy restrictions require two 5c devices to playback. So any content that is 5c protected can not be playback or recorded to any non-5C device. Both the JVC DVHS and the Mitsubishi are 5c compliant as well as Mitsubishi TV's SA STB's. We may see a 5c compliant firewire card one day, but I am sure their will be lots of restrictions, for example they may encrypt the file when it is stored on disk, and only 5c compliant software will be able to read or write to the file. 5c will control where we can copy it to, or what editing we can do.

To me the real problem is that the professional thieves will always find a way around and only we will suffer.

It can take years for someone to find a way to circumvent, this protection, many have said it is impossible, but I am sure they said the same thing about previous copy protection schemes.

[mikeymo]

I am not a BHN customer and do not plan to be in the near future.

However, a tip of the hat is in order to you guys who went to all the trouble to post. The info you provide is mighty hard to come by.

That said, I guess I'll go back to the DISH PVR 921 threads.

[HDTVFanAtic]

From Jim Kiker - Director of Explorer Settops (that includes SA 3250HD)

Our team has corrected the EPN bit issue that we spoke of at the NAB Show. It is in test now and I expect it to be made available to our cable operators around Mid May. They are also looking at the discontinuity errors. I can't promise fixes for that by the Mid May release, but they are seeing what can be done and when. On the VCR, we have an accessory IR blaster that connects in to the back of the unit. I'm setting it up and will know by tomorrow if the JVC-30000 is supported with the code library within that box. Once I find this out, I'll send you a note.



Jim

[jimwhite]

The JVC 30k works just fine with code #0081 !!

I just wish I could figure out what it is that sporadically turns my 30k on via firewire.... it's either the 3250 or my computer... but if it gets turned on when I have a recording scheduled, naturally the IR blaster turns it off instead of on.... I wish they were smart enough to use discrete code for ON instead of simply toggling power state.... maybe you can tell him THAT !!!

:D

[bdraw]

Great news for you 30k guys. But I have never had this trouble with my Mitsu, but I do hope that they fix the problem preventing me from watching my tv via 1394.

At this point I am seriosly considering a 8000HD when it becomes availible next month.

I may keep both, but not sure if it is worth the additional $6.00 mo.

Over at avs they have been using the VCR commander option of the SA box with the 30k for quite some time.

I have been pretty succesfull with dvhstool. I have copied a movie from dvhs to the PC editied it and wrote it back to tape with great results.

I am still a long way from having a HDReplayTV :( I can only hope.

[HDTVFanAtic]

since BHS doesnt give you an owners manual and forget about a tech knowing, what exactly is the vcr record option in the SA 3250HD after you put in the code? Does it have an IR transmitter that turns on your vcr at that time or does it do it via firewire?

[jimwhite]

You need to get one of their VCR-Commanders which is an IR blaster that plugs into the back of the box.... the jack is wired a little different so a standard IR blaster won't work, naturally....

:?

[HDTVFanAtic]

Where can you get them?

And does anyone know if you can change the remote control code on the SA 3250 HD? Otherwise, if you have 2 of them in the same room - one for live and one for tape - you'll screw up your tape with the remote.

[jimwhite]

once a recording triggers, it's locked to all but the Exit key, I believe....

8)

[HDTVFanAtic]

Yes, I have noticed it DOES lock it as you state if you set it up to record via vcr. The thing that troubles me is i have seen some wierd things happening in that configuration. The most troubling is I seem to get a signal drop or 1-3 seconds out very consistently about 30 seconds after the start time triggers. The screen goes grey if monitoring through the analog YPbPr on a JVC 30000 and on playback the video freezes for the period.

I don't know what that is about, but its screwed me several times thus far.

[HDTVFanAtic]

(From J Kiker @ scientific atlanta in response to a post on avs forum that the new SA firmware code was being rolled out on the 8th of May)


The build has been released to Time Warner/Brighthouse corporate lab for their approval. I expect they will release it shortly to the field, but that has not happened yet, so don't know what the message board would be referring to. Perhaps it was a build we did for the general population of non-1394 HD settops.


On the remote question, no, there is not a way to change the control code. We do have an accessory that we are now selling, an IR Extender. It connects into the USB port and will allow you to hide the settop in an entertainment center or some other place. Our remotes can send out at least two different frequencies, but the settop is expecting 56.9 KHz. We have looked at making a couple of different IR extenders, one would receive one frequency (36 Khz) and the other would receive 56.9 KHz. It would transmit 56.9 KHz to the settop. But, you would still need to keep putting the remote into different modes in the same room or have separate remotes, so still may not be a good idea.


I have tried code 081 and 083. Both seemed to work, although I definitely used the 083 on both the 30000 and 40000 JVC unit and it works. The cable company would need to supply the IR Blaster and turn on that feature in the settop. If they would turn in on in your settop, I could send you a blaster, but getting them to turn on that feature may not be easy if they have not done so.


The EPN bit issue was the source of the 40000 JVC issue and has been corrected.



Jim


(You now know as much as i do :D )