HD-DVD Talk

[passedpawn]

I am really excited about this. Equipment makers Samsung and Denon, and chipmaker Sigma, have teamed to build a HD DVD player. The beauty of this thing is that it uses a standard DVD, so all the DVD presses won't need changing. But the player will need to be able to decode the new compression scheme, WM9. The following list comes from a home theater discussion site. (http://www.hometheaterdiscussion.com/forums/printthread.php?threadid=2762)

More info at this site (http://www.cdfreaks.com/news2.php?ID=7696) and this one (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_3/show-report-vsda-2003.html). Note that the Terminator 2 bonus disk was already released with a HD WM9 version of the entire movie.


Posted by REWJR on 09-30-2003 19:27:
WM9 vs Blue Ray

There are no cons to the WM9 codec only pro's :

1. Available now and not 3 years from now.

2. Fits on existing red laser DVD technology

3. Advatage of the higher codec efficency is logical biz decision for all broadcasting as 2-3 channels fit into 1 1880i bandwidth.

4.The cost of Sigma design chip in large enough quatities will not be an issue.

5. NO retooling of existing DVD plants for yet another format change ( Sony Blue Ray ).

6. Codec can support in the bit stream DTS 24/96 10.2 !!

7. The codec is in it's infancy and WAMO boys will tweak it to perfection.

8. Keeping North America supreme in the Digital HDTV world PRICELESS.

Blue Ray advantages : more room on a disc due to higher Blue laser wave length.

Big Con so far only supports 1080i add to that the waiting time and the chance to capitulate to another format change who needs it .

__________________

[CANDY76MAN]

lol, wierd...I was just thinking about that a few days ago...I was reading something that mentioned the wma hd terminator version on the new disc and suddenly thought, it wouldn't be that hard (or costly) to intigrate a wma player into a standard progressive dvd player......that would be a good fairly easily implimented way to get hd dvd untill blue lazer players begin to saturate the market which is a few years off at best.

[bmw68]

I agree, if they can give us the future Now why !

[bdraw]

What is the posibility of it doing 1920x1080 60p?

To me if they are going to release a product for us at home it should be in the highest quality posible.
The only complaint I have with 1080 is pixelation during high motion. I believe it is crucial that whatever HD-DVD standard we adobt offer better quality then even our TV's today can produce. We all know how hard it is to change one once it is widespread.

[passedpawn]

What is the posibility of it doing 1920x1080 60p?

To me if they are going to release a product for us at home it should be in the highest quality posible.
The only complaint I have with 1080 is pixelation during high motion. I believe it is crucial that whatever HD-DVD standard we adobt offer better quality then even our TV's today can produce. We all know how hard it is to change one once it is widespread.

I agree, aim for the best PQ, not the lowest common denominator. 1080p 60fps. I think we can expect this, since WM9 can decode it. The only question is will A/V quality be sacrificed for DVD "extras", like multiple soundtracks, director voiceovers, "making of's", etc.

[passedpawn]

You can check out WM9 HD clips from Microsoft (http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/content_provider/film/ContentShowcase.aspx).

Make sure to note the PC requirements... they really mean it. Choppy video will result if your PC is slow.

[GreggLoewen]

the only problem with this is that the studios have already decided on the standard of Blue ray.

Do you really want MS dictating / monopolizing a standard for HD viewing??

Regards

Gregg

[CANDY76MAN]

the only problem with this is that the studios have already decided on the standard of Blue ray.

Do you really want MS dictating / monopolizing a standard for HD viewing??

Regards

Gregg

blueray is simply a way to fit a lot more data on a standard sized dvd, that will be standard regardless of how hd movies are encoded...
I'm looking forward to it as much for backing up large amounts of data off my computer on a single disk as I am for hd dvd but in the meantime we could be watching hd dvd movies right now with (for the most part) nothing more than a chip to decode wma files added to a standard dvd player...it is a simple cheap way to get hd dvd right now and it doesn't preclude any other technology(such as uncompressed hd movies on a blue ray dvd in the future)...blueray players will take several years to come down to a price where I could afford one just like recordable dvd did.

[GreggLoewen]

I too am for getting HD sooner vs later, but the studios have already committed to saturating the DVD market before moving on to releasing in HD DVD. To them is is only a numbers game.

Regards

Gregg

[passedpawn]

Do you really want MS dictating / monopolizing a standard for HD viewing??

Regards

Gregg
Why shouldn't Microsoft offer a licence-free, best-of-class compression scheme for NOTHING to the HD world. I'm not sure where the downside is.

[passedpawn]

I too am for getting HD sooner vs later, but the studios have already committed to saturating the DVD market before moving on to releasing in HD DVD. To them is is only a numbers game.

Regards

Gregg

If Denon or Samsung release their WM9-capable DVD players soon (January?), the studios may change their tune. DVD sales, especially the pricey "collectors editions", make them a lot of money.

If you wonder what the incentive is to release a WM9 version on one of those disks, I can't answer that. But I would guess it is the same reason they put all the extras on there.

[bdraw]

The biggest reason not to use WM9 and to use Blu-ray is piracy.
Lets face it microsoft's DRM is a joke.

The studios know that the one thing that can't be worked around is large amounts of data.

What is easier to transfer accross the Internet a 5gb file or a 30gb file?

MPAA's biggest fear is Napster. They don't want their movies exchange freely across the Internet.

Now sure you can recompress the 30gb file to 5gb but most people don't have the patience for this.

Look for the studios to back what ever they see the most security in.
To me asking the MPAA to back WM9 is like asking the RIAA to endorse MP3's.

To them it is a threat.

Personly I like the bottle water business model.
Show the consumer the value and they will buy it over what is free.

Even if all DVD player that come out in January support MPEG4/WM9 no one will pay extra for that feature if there aren't any movies for them to watch.

[bmw68]

Did the Superbit DVDs do well?
If so, that cpuld be an example of how a niche market like wm9 DVDs could do well.
There are a lot of people out there searching for more HD content out there to convince them transition to HD, this could be just one more reason for them to make the move.

[passedpawn]

Look for the studios to back what ever they see the most security in.
To me asking the MPAA to back WM9 is like asking the RIAA to endorse MP3's.
Good point.
Even if all DVD player that come out in January support MPEG4/WM9 no one will pay extra for that feature if there aren't any movies for them to watch.
Another good point. However, as the hardware manufacturers try to "one-up" each other with features, this may be a differentiator that will help them make the sale. DVD players are a dime a dozen these days.

[passedpawn]

Did the Superbit DVDs do well?
If so, that cpuld be an example of how a niche market like wm9 DVDs could do well.
There are a lot of people out there searching for more HD content out there to convince them transition to HD, this could be just one more reason for them to make the move.
I would gladly pay a few extra bucks for the superbit version of a movie. I only occasionally watch the bonus features on a DVD. And I NEVER watch them twice. I buy movies so that I can watch them more than one time.

Still, I doubt that the superbit versions have made much of a stir in the whole DVD market. No data to back that up.

[bmw68]

Did the Superbit DVDs do well?
If so, that cpuld be an example of how a niche market like wm9 DVDs could do well.
There are a lot of people out there searching for more HD content out there to convince them transition to HD, this could be just one more reason for them to make the move.
I would gladly pay a few extra bucks for the superbit version of a movie. I only occasionally watch the bonus features on a DVD. And I NEVER watch them twice. I buy movies so that I can watch them more than one time.

Still, I doubt that the superbit versions have made much of a stir in the whole DVD market. No data to back that up.

What I was getting at is that if people are willing to pay for SuperBit DVD would they not be willing to pay for or want a HD DVD in WM9 format for a DVD. I personal don't find added value to the extras, to me I would rather have the best presentation of the Movie or whatever is being offered, and if I can get that right now via wm9 format I would pay and I think others looking for more HD would do the same.

[bdraw]

I agree, I will take quality over feautures anyday.

But I don't see how increasing the bit rate will help the quality.
I can not remember watching a DVD and seeing Compresion artifacts.
I can remember seeing bad transfers.
Are superbits a seperate transfer or just a higher bit rate?

I will buy any WM9 encoded DVD that comes availible over a non WM9.
I don't care about the DVD hardware. Even though I realize that in order for WM9 to go main stream it has to have hardware.
I will watch movies off my HTPC regardles.
The only reason I have a ST DVD player is for my wife to use.

I don't see the movie studios outputing 1080i on any interface other than DVI, and my tv doesn't have DVI.
So I play them on my computer at 1080i.

[bmw68]

I think that once Samsung and Dennon Release the two new ST DVD players that are able to do WM9 format, we will see more DVD with this option, then they can see how the market reacts.

[fatologist]

I am curious to learn more about the plans Microsoft has for the XBOX if this format is accepted as the industry standard. Knowing Microsoft, you will need to buy a firmware upgrade disc that will enable the playback of WM9 DVDs.

[passedpawn]

But I don't see how increasing the bit rate will help the quality.
The lossy compression used to fit a movie onto a DVD does affect quality of the picture. Less compression (allowed by removing the featues) can only improve the picture, but to what extent? I don't know firsthand that the superbit versions look better, though. Has anyone here done a side-by-side comparison of superbit and non-superbit?

[CANDY76MAN]

But I don't see how increasing the bit rate will help the quality.
The lossy compression used to fit a movie onto a DVD does affect quality of the picture. Less compression (allowed by removing the featues) can only improve the picture, but to what extent? I don't know firsthand that the superbit versions look better, though. Has anyone here done a side-by-side comparison of superbit and non-superbit?

I haven't myself but I've read a number of reviews by people who did...the overall impression I get is that it's a minor improvement that you probly won't notice without a side by side comparison or a VERY critical eye.

[passedpawn]

The 800 lb. Gorilla (Microsoft) is putting on weight. Read here (http://news.designtechnica.com/article1465.html) how Pioneer audio receiver now decodes WM9 digital audio (i.e., 5.1 channel surround from a PC).

[bmw68]

Jo Kane from Digital Video Essentials fame, thinks that WM9 format is a good Intrem soultion for us to have HDDVD now not later.
Have a read
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_3/show-report-vsda-2003.html

[CANDY76MAN]

cool.........I downloaded some of the 1080p trailers from microsoft and watched them on my computer....1080p hd is unbelievable, too bad almost nothing (that I could ever hope to afford) but crt computer monitors can display resolutions that high...imagine 1080p on a 100" screen :P

[bmw68]

http://db.widescreenreview.com/weeknews/FMPro?-db=webnewsearch.fp5&-format=record%5fdetail.htm&-sortfield=rank&-op=cn&Type=Web%20News&Year=2003&Month=10&Day=28&-recid=40989&-find=

THe above is a link to new DVD recorder that uses WMV9 format. I think this is a sign that WMV9 is not going away and just maybe our HD recording answer for now.
[/url]

[bdraw]

http://db.widescreenreview.com/weeknews/FMPro?-db=webnewsearch.fp5&-format=record%5fdetail.htm&-sortfield=rank&-op=cn&Type=Web%20News&Year=2003&Month=10&Day=28&-recid=40989&-find=

THe above is a link to new DVD recorder that uses WMV9 format. I think this is a sign that WMV9 is not going away and just maybe our HD recording answer for now.
[/url]

The link says nothing about HD.
I doubt it is possible to play or record HD anything with this device.

[bmw68]

I sent and Email to them asking them that very question.

[passedpawn]

The device is still interesting because it is (AFAIK) the first non-pc device able to play back WM9 DVDs to a TV.

It is, likely, a PC inside. Still, it fits the description of a DVD player.

The companies web site is el lamo.

[CANDY76MAN]

http://db.widescreenreview.com/weeknews/FMPro?-db=webnewsearch.fp5&-format=record%5fdetail.htm&-sortfield=rank&-op=cn&Type=Web%20News&Year=2003&Month=10&Day=28&-recid=40989&-find=

THe above is a link to new DVD recorder that uses WMV9 format. I think this is a sign that WMV9 is not going away and just maybe our HD recording answer for now.
[/url]

The link says nothing about HD.
I doubt it is possible to play or record HD anything with this device.

true but I think it would be fairly easy for them to modify the player to output hd resolutions once they have the chip in it for wm9...I don't know about recording hd but certainly playback of wm9 encoded hd is just one step away now.

[passedpawn]

FYI, here is a link to the new Digital Video Essentials website. This new setup and cal DVD is supposed to be released with WM9 material for use with HD TVs... just supply your own HD DVD player!. I suppose a HTPC could do it, too.

Of note is the price: $89. I'll have to read some good reviews before I shell out that kind of money for another cal DVD. So who wants to be the first forum member to buy the DIVA player, Buy the DVE, and find out if any of it actually works?

[bmw68]

I sent an Email to Joe Kane of DVE and asked if he had tested his new WM9 DVD with this Player, no response as of yet , will post once/if I get a response.

[passedpawn]

http://db.widescreenreview.com/weeknews/FMPro?-db=webnewsearch.fp5&-format=record%5fdetail.htm&-sortfield=rank&-op=cn&Type=Web%20News&Year=2003&Month=10&Day=28&-recid=40989&-find=

THe above is a link to new DVD recorder that uses WMV9 format. I think this is a sign that WMV9 is not going away and just maybe our HD recording answer for now.
[/url]

The link says nothing about HD.
I doubt it is possible to play or record HD anything with this device.

true but I think it would be fairly easy for them to modify the player to output hd resolutions once they have the chip in it for wm9...I don't know about recording hd but certainly playback of wm9 encoded hd is just one step away now.
Not that easy. Since the WM9 format is highly compressed, the decompression (which is required before it is sent to the TV) is VERY processor intensive. For HD resolutions, the processor requirements go up dramatically, as do the memory requirements to make it happen.

I haven't seen anything about a applications specific chip for decoding WM9. If anyone sees anything like this, please post. Because the internal memory cache on a dedicated processor (or Application Specific IC - ASIC) would not have to contend with solitaire and Internet Explorer, like on your PC, the requirements for this chip would not be 3GHz (like Microsoft requires for their HD WM9 downloads).

[Jerry_Pease]

I hear rumor(s) Vinc new bravo "whatever" dvd player supposedly incorporate WM9 decoding. Will see.

[bdraw]

Not that easy. Since the WM9 format is highly compressed, the decompression (which is required before it is sent to the TV) is VERY processor intensive. For HD resolutions, the processor requirements go up dramatically, as do the memory requirements to make it happen.

I haven't seen anything about a applications specific chip for decoding WM9. If anyone sees anything like this, please post. Because the internal memory cache on a dedicated processor (or Application Specific IC - ASIC) would not have to contend with solitaire and Internet Explorer, like on your PC, the requirements for this chip would not be 3GHz (like Microsoft requires for their HD WM9 downloads).

I don't belive that WM9 format is that much different from MPEG4.
A modified MPEG4 chip should be able to decode it.

MPEG4 decoders shouldn't cost too much more than MPEG2 decoders.
You can buy MPEG decoder cards for a PC as low as $100.00

I assume this to be true since WM9 takes advantage of DXVA just like DVD's do.

One reason why it might be more process intensive is because of it's DRM. It has to have some overhead.

As far as the minimum requirements for WM9 I can play the clips on my P4 2.4ghz with a Radeon 7000 VE, on either of its DVI outputs (not both at the same time)to 18" LCD's.
It would be interesting to know the actual minimum.
I would bet that a HD-DVD wm9 STB would be less than $300.00. But this box would probably only have DVI out, just like other DVD players that output 1080i do.

Which leaves me and Passedpawn out in the cold.

Don't leave out Divx and Xvid. They are both very good too.
I personally use Xvid because it is open source. Plus Vidomi enoder software is really easy to use, and for some reason WM9 encoder always crashes on my box.